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Time for some Views... - February 24,2000 by JoseQ
So I bet you've heard about Nicola's decision to take some games out of the MAME supported list based on different reasons. The major culprits? Gambling games, namely Video Poker, and Slot Machine type of games whichmakes the rounds on some casinos and mom and pop littlestores around the US. I personally have never seen them onan Arcade Parlour or next to regular Arcade Video Games, but some people have. The other victim being Pong, the oldest game in the book. So why are these games going out?
So let's talk about the Gambling games. Why are theyso bad? First of all, I'd have to mention that dependingon where you are from, you may have a different opinionon this subject. And believe it or not, that's the main reason why this decision came about. Nicola's opinion onthese games is not very high, or is bottom low to say theleast. He simply does not consider them Arcade Machines bydefinition, thus feels that they should not have been addedto MAME in the first place. Discussions on the list seem toindicate that even in some cases, these type of games arelocated right next to regular video games, so it is obviousthat the opinions vary across the world. My opinion? Theseare Video Games/Arcade Machines to me as well. They work like them, and the only difference is that instead of givingyou achievement entertainment, they may hit you with cash.That purpose is null with MAME however, so the point get'sblurred even more.
I think it comes down to a moral issue, and what's worse, a personal issue from Nicola. Even though he despisesthese games, for some people, they are valuable pieces ofmemorabilia, and they should be archived in History likeother video games. What's next? Violent games being takenout because of school shootouts? To me it's all a matter ofopinion, and while the connection between vices and slotmachines might be clearer than the one between violence andvideo games, just try to explain that to some congressmen. They will tell you otherwise.
Now, there's the topic of Pong. The reason why Pong isbeing taken out of MAME, is because it's not truly andemulation driver but rather a simulation. And for thosethat didn't know, so are the samples, but those aren't goingout. This is also a rather questionable topic, and most ofthe MAMEDEV team would like to see Pong stay. In reality,true emulation of analog circuitry will never be perfect,but to me, it's still emulation. It all depends on how youdefine emulation, and to me, in this case, would be theperception that you're playing the actual arcade machineby imitating the behaviour of the original hardware. Andthat's what the Pong driver attempts to do. True it has totake some licenses in some cases, but so do drivers usingsamples to produce the sounds.
So I guess by the tone of this article, you can tell that I'm all against the removal of both of these areas fromMAME. Growing up in Puerto Rico, where Casinos are legal forpeople over 18, I must say I had my share of fun using thosetype of games, even though I liked the real slot machinesover the video ones, but hey, that's my taste.
If I were Nicola, I would make a team poll on MAMEDEVand use that to decide the faith of the gambling games andPong in MAME. However, that does not seem to have been thecase, and we will all see, come the next version of MAME, which should be RC1 by the way. Anyhow, these are solely myViews and not of EmuViews... oh wait, they are. Comments?

One Article Up: SNEeSe 0.41 is here!
One Article Down: Raine is Dead?

Add Your Comments

Name: anonymous Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2000 - (12:58)
Subject:
From:
...and how many of you own any gambling machines so that you're allowed to play the emulated gambling games with MAME?

If you happen to own them, just recompile MAME and that's it.

If you don't, why are you whining?

Simple as that.

[Post a reply]

Name: raindog Posted: Monday, February 28, 2000 - (21:17)
Subject: If Nicola didn't want our opinions....
From:
....he would never have opened the betas.

I don't really care, since I still have the source to 36b15 and will probably try to make it into a "pong emulator" for my own use and I don't do gambling in the first place.

I do hope a "pong emulator" reappears outside the MAME project though, because it's still kind of neat. Anyone can simulate Pong, but simulating the analog circuitry makes it an emulator in my book.

[Post a reply]

Name: NooRt Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2000 - (10:20)
Subject: Mame
From:
People who didn't take part in
developing Mame, should just be
grateful for what they got for
free and let those who supplied
their time, vision, skill, and hard
work decide what they want THEIR
program to be.

[Post a reply]

Name: GBMan Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2000 - (8:56)
Subject: an idea
From:
The newest release of MAME excludes some games that are "not arcade games": the gambling games, the "no rom" games (Pong), the games that are taken from unknown consoles based on arcade boards (SFZ Japan CPS Changer).

I am agree with Nicola of taking off these games from MAME, but I think that these type of emulations-simulations should be included on... MESS

MAME (Multi ARCADE Machine Emulator)
- for Arcade Games
MESS (Multi Emulator Super SYSTEM)
- for Multiple SYSTEMS

And these games are SYSTEMS.....

[Post a reply]

Name: paola Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (22:59)
Subject: gambling games
From:
>I think it comes down to a moral >issue, and what's worse, a personal >issue from Nicola.
I have nothing against it.He makes the emulator...he decides what it's wrong and what is right.
Anyway for understanding his reason you have to know that here in Italy the scandals about the gambling machines fill the attention of all the media...because here there is so much people that ruins himself on that stupid machines.

[Post a reply]

Name: Computarman Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (22:29)
Subject: Gambling Games
From:
I like these games and I would like to see more of them in MAME. If you are against gambling for real money I would say that I agree with you. I believe overall gambling is bad for society. However playing these games on MAME seems completly harmless and you can't lose your grocery money. I hope this descision to exclude these games is reversed.
Pinball started as a gambling game. Are you going to remove "Pinball Action" because of this?

[Post a reply]

Name: Bew Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (20:05)
Subject:
From:
I have to say I do not care much for the gambling games, but Pong, on the other hand, brings memories. I was only couple of years old with two or three coins in my pocket. I hardly was reaching to the controls, but I still was coming back for more. That's when my fascination with electronics started. When I look back that was my early-start entrance into arcade games. From that point on, I spent a lot of time playing 'better' and more colorful games that offered more action, but I have never forgotten this first game. Taking this game out of Mame looses its purpose. The reasons all these games are in mame is not just because of emulation. You should also consider the fact that Pong was an ARCADE game. If you try to forget this, you take a big chunk out of 'Arcade nostalgia'. Mame stands for Multi ARCADE Machin Emulator. Pong is an arcade game, therefore it should stay. Taking it out makes Mame loose its value. Why would you want to loose a FIRST arcade game, if you already have emulated/simulated(who cares) it??? For me Pong means alot, not because I play it all the time, but because I know that it is where it belongs: in Mame. By leaving it where it is we are paying a tribute to the game that started it all. Do I need to say more?

[Post a reply]

Name: Bew Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (19:58)
Subject:
From:
I have to say I do not care much for the gambling games, but Pong, on the other hand, brings memories. I was only couple of years old with two or three coins in my pocket. I hardly was reaching to the controls, but I still was coming back for more. That's when my fascination with electronics started. When I look back that was my early-start entrance into arcade games. From that point on, I spent a lot of time playing 'better' and more colorful games that offered more action, but I have never forgotten this first game. Taking this game out of Mame looses its purpose. The reasons all these games are in mame is not just because of emulation. You should also consider the fact that Pong was an ARCADE game. If you try to forget this, you take a big chunk out of 'Arcade nostalgia'. Mame stands for Multi ARCADE Machin Emulator. Pong is an arcade game, therefore it should stay. Taking it out makes Mame loose its value. Why would you want to loose a FIRST arcade game, if you already have emulated/simulated(who cares) it??? For me Pong means alot, not because I play it all the time, but because I know that it is where it belongs: in Mame. By leaving it where it is we are paying a tribute to the game that started it all. Do I need to say more?

[Post a reply]

Name: Jose M. Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (17:20)
Subject: MameMania
From:
Who cares they remove any game. We can always use a previous version burned in a juicy CD full of (i)legal ROMs...
That's what it is all about : ethics about gambling doesn't match with the steal attitude of getting the latest warez / ROMs (they look everyday near and near), or does it ?

[Post a reply]

Name: Dr. Stefanos D. Pihas M.D ,Ph.D ,Greece Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (12:13)
Subject: Arcades ,Morale ,Ethics and Aesthetics
From:
It's the first time I participate on a message board.
I didn't post my comments earlier because i wanted to view the peoples reaction first ,so that we would have a basis to argue on.
Now i did spent a couple of hours online to study all comments and ,I must admit ,I do have a couple of things to say:
PART I-PONG
On the issue of Pong ,although I am 30 I 've never really played it on an arcade machine ,but I am familiar with its history.
Although my technical knowledge is very limited ,it's more than obvious that it's not an emulation but a simulation and as such it should be considered.
But the essence of the issue itself is whether a simulation should (or rather could) be included in an emulation project.
The answer to this is by no means neither simple nor obvious.
The facts are the following:
1)By definition simulation is not a MAME field of action ,thus one could easily jump to the conclusion that Pong was correctly removed.
2)a)MAME is firstly Nicolas and secondly (I would like to think so) the whole MAMEDEV teams achievement ,so who are we to tell them what to do with their "property".
b)But since we are all affected by their decisions it's only logical that we express opinions and make reasonable and benefitiary suggestions,so...
3)Pong IS History and noone can dispute that
4)A Definition dispute,although a great argument for typicality-lovers ,is not by itself an argument capable of standing at any field of science , especially when the perception of "common benefit" can be involved.
EXAMPLES:a)I am a neurosurgeon. A severely injured person comes at my shift with abdominal trauma. The general surgeons are busy with other equally injured persons.Although by definition it's not my responsibility to treat the patient ,how logical would it be to say:Oops,bad luck sir.I could help you ,but your case doesn't belong at my field of expertise ,so I can't do a perfect job with you ,so we 'll have to let you die ,waiting for someone who is entitled to treat you better???
b)In a court of Law who wouldn't laugh at a president who would give my inheritance to my fourth nephew and not to my adopted son ,because by definition he is not blood-related to me???

But these things could never happen. Could they?
No.
And Why?
Because sciences have found their own ways to overcome typical-definition problems.
Shouldn't we also?

CONCLUSION:
I can understand Nicolas reasons for excluding Pong.
It is a simulation and not an emulation.
But other than that are there any other non-typical reasons for excluding it , while for us ,arcade history lovers there isn't a better alternative?
For example ,I would never play a MsPacman simulation where ghosts would not move the classic way ,because it would most certainly alter the essence of the game itself.But is this the case with Pong ? As far as I know it's not.
And even if as a simulation it is not perfect ,are All MAME drivers Perfect ?
That doesn't really need an answer , does it?

My final word is that MAME should definitely reconsider its decision , because Pong ,in any form, is arcade history ,as is now also MAME ,although by definition it is just emulation , meaning that it has nothing to do with the original arcade cabinets or hardware.
But I guess none of us does really care about THAT definition dispute when we do see the result to our common benefit. Do We?

[Post a reply]

Name: RichardJ Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (10:56)
Subject: So very Sad
From:
What a sad display, these people put their considerable time and effort into something they love, and by simply making choices about where they want to see their work going every moron gets his back up. If you don't like it, write you own emulators, get $!@#ed you lazy, cunts.

[Post a reply]

Name: Carnage from the band Valley Of Fog, Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (7:56)
Subject: Don't take out the Violent games!!!!
From:
Violent Games been here since the 80's.

being taken out because of school shootouts?

Come'on it's all a matter of opinion.

Violent Games shall stay in Mame

because Mortal Kombat 1 & 2,

Splatterhouse, chiller, and more are

video game history.

If you have to take them out put the

violent games seprate for us 18 or order

can enjoy.

I am 21.

Hail to the Violent Games!!!

>:)


[Post a reply]

Name: kma Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (6:36)
Subject: ?
From:
MAME is the Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator. Since there are only four types of arcade machines namely video games, gambling, pinball and novelty it seems like it is time for MAME to change its name. Since the majority of people in an arcade play the gambling games, surely it makes sense to have them emulated? Pinball is now virtually dead. Only Stern make them now. These machines should be emulated as well now as they are far rarer than you would think.

[Post a reply]

Name: Raphael See Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (14:32)
Subject: Re: Pinball is dead??
From:
>Pinball is now virtually dead. Only Stern make them now. These machines should be emulated as well now as they are far rarer than you would think.

Pinball is not dead! Pinball is life!!

It's true, though, that pinball is starting to go the way of the 8-track. A darned shame, too, since a well-designed machine is often a truer test of skill than any video arcade machine. Good luck "emulating" them, though. The physics behind them are much more complex than any ROM board out there. Pro Pinball made some fine simulations for the pC, but it seems that they've bowed out (not surprising; computer pinball has always been a niche market at best).

[Post a reply]

Name: Pinball Nut Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (18:51)
Subject: Re: Re: Pinball is dead??
From:
>>Pinball is now virtually dead. Only Stern make them now. These machines should be emulated as well now as they are far rarer than you would think.

I didn't like Revenge From Mars and wrongly assumed that it was Pinball 2000 that sucked, but I actually liked Star Wars Episode1 Pinball. It was too easy, however. Too bad Williams won't be making any more. They were the best at it, overall. Sega/Stern's offerings haven't been that great, overall.

>It's true, though, that pinball is starting to go the way of the 8-track. A darned shame, too, since a well-designed machine is often a truer test of skill than any video arcade machine. Good luck "emulating" them, though. The physics behind them are much more complex than any ROM board out there. Pro Pinball made some fine simulations for the pC, but it seems that they've bowed out (not surprising; computer pinball has always been a niche market at best).

Since when has Cunning Developments bowed out of ProPinball? The latest ProPinball game (Fantastic Journey) was just recently released in the past couple of months! They have stated they are not disbanding and will make pinball games in the future again.

[Post a reply]

Name: Arie Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (5:43)
Subject: Eliminating games
From:
Why eliminate any games at all?
If somebody doesn't like a game for
some reason or other, he doesn't have
to play it.

1. Can slot-machines be considered
video games?
It's obvious that the a major part of
MAME users believes so.
That should be enough to let the games
stay.

2. I really hope that excluding the slot
machines isn't because of "morals".
The Internet should be above petty
over-righteousness.

Arie.

[Post a reply]

Name: John Beatty Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (2:59)
Subject: Pong
From:
I can see one reason for eliminating Pong:
licensing. Technically, I don't think
any video game companies can go after MAME
(although one would have to check with a
lawyer) because it only emulates the games
if you have a ROMset, which aren't
distributed with the game. With Pong, on the
other hand, the code is included, and that
could be possible grounds for prosecution
or at least some sort of trouble if Hasbro
wanted to be a pain in the ass about it.
Personally, I laid out the cash
for the Atari Arcade Hits CD-ROM. Which, FWIW,
I think is a pretty good investment for two
reasons: 1-Pong works a hell of a lot better
than it does in MAME and 2-the sound effects in
Missile Command work properly (unlike in MAME).

[Post a reply]

Name: Mini Collins Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (23:34)
Subject: useless
From:
I hope this useless dicussion have, at least, one result:
Some true programmer start a new project without all this bullsh!t about stupid EGO opinions and the children, who write this testaments, go out and make the things happen...

My Regards...

[Post a reply]

Name: Smeg Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (23:00)
Subject:
From:
If Nicola really doesn't want these in Mame, he ought to put them all together in a separate program, so the people who want to can still enjoy them.

[Post a reply]

Name: Phil Stroffolino Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (9:59)
Subject: Re:
From:
>If Nicola really doesn't want these in Mame, he ought to put them all together in a separate program, so the people who want to can still enjoy them.

He did, it's called "Beta16"

[Post a reply]

Name: Smeg Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2000 - (7:21)
Subject: Re: Re:
From:
>>If Nicola really doesn't want these in Mame, he ought to put them all together in a separate program, so the people who want to can still enjoy them.

>

>He did, it's called "Beta16"

>Haha...Actually, Rodimus Prime did, check out www.mameworld.net/cybertron if you haven't already.

[Post a reply]

Name: JAU Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (22:08)
Subject: PONG say it with pride
From:
IF it were not for PONG, there would have been no beginning to the video game story.
The 1st game I ever played was pong and I think just from a historical stand point it should stay.
If there are Nicola has problems with other games, so be it. MAME is the best memory I will ever have
of some of these games. I say THANK YOU to the whole MAME team every time I start up one of the clasics.
But PONG, how can you remove the sead, the beginning, the child that made these games what they are today.

[Post a reply]

Name: Asphyx Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (20:45)
Subject: Removed Games
From:
Well, I am of the opinion that if you could put a quarter in it and press buttons to make something happen on a screen, it is an Arcade machine and should be emulated. Gambling or otherwise should not be the point here.

If PONG was not already supported I could understand NOT supporting it. But since the work has already been done what is the point of cutting it now. Besides if it weren't for pong there probably wouldn't be any arcade games.

The argument of analog circuitry is bogus since every DIGITAL chip is mimicking analog circuitry of some sort. a 35 micron transistor works the same as one thats 35 cm's...you just fit more in the box! I understand nicola's concern about it not being a true emulation but more of a simulation. But it works already so why cut it!

As Far as gambling games go...these are just as much ARCADE machines as anything available...before there were "VIDEO" games...arcades consisted mainly of electronic poker and card games usually involving some ball or something ala Pinball machines. While it is impossible to emulate these types of games the ones that can be emulated should be. If it is for Moral reasons to NOT support these games he should rethink the whole project as I'm sure there are a LOT of people using games they DON'T own the roms to...Not exactly helping the public Ethics...But none of us would wish that on us.

If Nicola doesn't want to waste his time adding these or other games then I find no fault with that decision...but I hope and beg he doesn't cut support of something that doesn't need to be worked on and works already! Personally I love this thing so much I'm just happy he made it in the first place!

There are so many games out there that are still not supported (Leland), We should be working to support any game that will work in the emulator...not thining the list by re-clasifying the coin-op type. If Nicola and the other guru's don't want to waste their time on these games and instead work on better titles...who are we to argue?

Personally I wish someone would make an emulator that could run ROMs from the games they use in vegas....maybe then I could do something usefull with my time instead of shooting aliens! LOL

[Post a reply]

Name: Tommy Tucker Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (19:46)
Subject: ERIC
From:
3 times you have said here that it isn't a moral decision.

Go read http://www.arcadeheaven.com/nicola1.txt and reconcile that with what you keep saying.

"I HATE GAMLBING GAMES" Nicola

[Post a reply]

Name: ddr Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (19:33)
Subject: gambling machines
From:
I do agree with Nicola:
I'm italian and even if I'm too young
to have played Pong I spent a lot of
time playing space invaders, exicitng
soccer and others; my parents let me
out only on sundays to go to an amusement park so that I could play
them; if you were good you could
last hours with very little money
and THAT was fun! Now I don't go
out to amusement because they're full of those damn gambling machine that
don't give me any challenge:
they simply let you win when you or
others have put enough money in and
I don't see any fun in that.
They are KILLING the arcade games
as we knew them, replacing bobblebobble,
rolling thunder and others so why should they be emulated? BTW what is
the point of playing them at your PC?

[Post a reply]

Name: ECYRB Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (18:45)
Subject:
From:
I hate to see any games of any type go, but if he wants to change his own project thats up to him. Be happy that M.A.M.E. was developed in the first place. Maybe Someone could make another emulator that runs any roms dropped from MAME!

[Post a reply]

Name: -=J=- Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (18:28)
Subject: mame removals
From:
hmmmm.... well I am against removing any games for the simple reason of nostalgia. Playing the games from my youth really take me back. (especially pong) I personally have never played a gamble machine but im sure someone has and it would make them smile to load up something they spent so much time with.
-=J=-

[Post a reply]

Name: Phil Stroffolino Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (19:58)
Subject: Re: mame removals
From:
>hmmmm.... well I am against removing any games for the simple reason of nostalgia. Playing the games from my youth really take me back. (especially pong) I personally have never played a gamble machine but im sure someone has and it would make them smile to load up something they spent so much time with.

Smile while looking at a machine that robbed you blind? I don't think so. More likely people will be tempted to take a hatchet to their PCs. People don't normally have fond memories of the times they lost gobs of cash to a one-armed bandit.

[Post a reply]

Name: Nathan Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (18:26)
Subject: Don't Kill Pong!
From:
I can't believe all this hypocracy behind the morals of what *kind* of stuff
should be emulated. ...I think the whole MAME project crossed the bounds of
and 'honest' documentation/preservation project when developent started
churning out such recent things as some NeoGeo titles like King of Fighters
98/99, Puzzle Bobble, etc.

In the space of a couple of months MAME was emulating 50% (!) of the stuff
that is in my local arcade! We'd moved from trying to preserve old and dying
boards that the manufacturers didn't give a s**t about because they were too
busy leeching money from the masses with tripe like Tetris 5d 3000, Mega
Splatter Gore Quake Tournament Edition, and Super-dooper Turbo Street Fighter
Alpha Beta Gamma EX.

...MAME was now taking money from the Arcade just accross the hallway (small
irony: It closed due to lack of profit last month) in the name of
preservation. ...Which I'm sure 90% of its users neither know or care about.
It didn't worry a workmate of mine. He wasn't having to feed money into
those machines any more, because his dual-pentuim machine could play KoF'99
better than the NeoGeo arcade box could.

And we're picking *now* to decide some things aren't appropriate to be
emulated? Many hundreds of titles emulated, and a few gambling titles are
really going to make that much difference to anything? S**t! The MAME dev
team never showed any conscience with the modern-ness of anything emulated,
why should they care what fits the precise bill of an arcade title?

Personally I could care less about the gambling titles. What the hell good
are they to anyone without the real money being lost. ;) (Kinda draws and
uncomfortable parallel with the lazer-disc games without the real disc.) :)
But not emulating PONG?!??!? Pong is the ultimate original arcade game!
Not having Pong is like not having Space Invaders!

Who honestly gives a s**t about whether Pong quite fits into the exact
criteria of what an emulated title is. (FWIW, I think it *does*!) Should
it not be included purely because of differences in hardware implementation?
Pong is Pong! ...Does its presence really impact on the wellbeing of the
MAME project in any way? Hell no!

Whether or not you want to split hairs about if Pong quite fits into the
criteria of a MAME title, the simple fact is that Pong fits into Coin-Op
history right alongside Space Invaders. It's the great grand-daddy of
everything we have now, and to have it removed from the MAME titles just
makes me feel a whole lot sadder about what I thought the MAME project
was all about.

Pong is at the epoch of the history line of Coin-Op titles that brought us
here, is it not?

Nathan.
(a retrogamer for life. ...Since Pong, the first arcade game I ever saw.)

[Post a reply]

Name: Mex Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:35)
Subject: Mame
From:
Yes, remove the gambling games as they're rubbish anyway.

[Post a reply]

Name: Fudge Nutter Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:43)
Subject: Re: Mame
From:
>Yes, remove the gambling games as they're rubbish anyway.

>Get rid of those Neo Geo ones as well.

[Post a reply]

Name: krasniy Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:09)
Subject: Removal of Mame Titles
From:
While I dislike gambling machines...I must admit that having them in Mame is not a bad thing... nor is having at least some "representation" of Pong.

[Post a reply]

Name: Nick - The Killer Rat Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (16:44)
Subject: Nicola has the rights...
From:
It's HIS program and he should be allowed to decide what's going on with it. Btw, I personally don't care about gambling crap. My mother lost thousands of DM (Deutsch Mark) using those crappy machines in the past. IMHO, the MameDEV team should concentre on true video games - 'cause it's all about gaming fun, not loosing or winning stupid money.

[Post a reply]

Name: Downtown Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2000 - (17:51)
Subject: Re: Nicola has the rights...
From:
>It's HIS program and he should be allowed to decide what's going on with it.

I thought there was a whole team....

>Btw, I personally don't care about gambling crap. My mother lost thousands of DM (Deutsch Mark) using those crappy machines in the past.

That's not our problem.....

>IMHO, the MameDEV team should concentre on true video games - 'cause it's all about gaming fun, not loosing or winning stupid money.

Ummm.... You don't lose or win anything in MAME. I personally like these games as there is no risk.

>

[Post a reply]

Name: Chris Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (16:22)
Subject: removal of games
From:
A video game is a video game. It matters not the subject or content but the desire of people to enjoy. I am really grateful that MAME exists in the first place and if the opinion is they dont belong than so be it but that is sad. Every little game has meaning to someone so I suggest we all hang on to 36b16 and not let go.

[Post a reply]

Name: Crisis Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (15:20)
Subject: Depends who you ask
From:
A few years ago in Australia Victoria a Group of people Tryed to have normal arcade machines banned because in their opinion it was gambling by having to pay money and then it was a gamble to see how far you could get.
Thankfully they didn't get very far and this argument hasn't been brought up since (i guess they must have moved on to tryin to ban cnady for causin cancer or kyte flyin for affectin the ozone layer;) .
But it goes to show that some peoples opinions are far far diffrent from the norm.

But i was wondering if game like stip poker ,which I spent many hours playin on my Commodore64 years ago, could be considered gambling.

Anyway theres allways people who are going to over indulge in things (who has spent more than 14 hours or more on line in a day) as long as its not affecting anyone else it shouldnt matter.

So i guess this has all gotten alittle off the track of what the topics about but judging from the response its somethin alot of people consider an isuue worth discussing.

[Post a reply]

Name: Empyre Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (15:15)
Subject: Who cares??
From:
If you own the original arcade PCB you can play the real thing, if you don't own it, you arn't allowed to play it anyway.

Either way, the removal of these games from MAME doesnt change your legal ability to play them.

This whole thread just proves that people into emulation are just into it because of the number of free games they get access to.

[Post a reply]

Name: Eric Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:01)
Subject: Re: Who cares??
From:
>If you own the original arcade PCB you can play the real thing, if you don't own it, you arn't allowed to play it anyway.

LOL. How many people do you figure collect PCBs from slot machines? They kind of loose their zest if they're not a box full of money you might win.

So many people have this whole thing so very, very wrong.

[Post a reply]

Name: Minke Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (14:32)
Subject: Documentation
From:
MAME is a documentation project. If the "simulation" of Pong, as it stands, adequately documents its circuitry then I believe it should stay.

Are discrete logic chips too unpredictable to properly emulate? No, otherwise how is that the physical arcade game worked each time one was plugged in?

Is it difficult to perfectly emulate discrete logic games? Yes, but it seems that every time I check the MAME WIP board that somebody's fixed a bug in the 68020 core, or some other microprocessor, so apparently that's pretty difficult too.

Is the code reusable, or is it necessary to program each discrete logic game from scratch? The code certainly could be reusable, but its a pretty big design and implementation task. But so was getting MAME to the state that it's in today.

Should discrete logic games be in MAME? As a documentation project, I don't see how you could, or why you would, want to justify excluding them. They would certainly be more suited to a brand new environment that is tailored to their subtleties, but they nevertheless seem to fit easily under the scope of the original MAME precepts.

Minke

[Post a reply]

Name: Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:20)
Subject: Re: Documentation
From:
>MAME is a documentation project. If the "simulation" of Pong, as it stands, adequately documents its circuitry then I believe it should stay.

>

>Are discrete logic chips too unpredictable to properly emulate? No, otherwise how is that the physical arcade game worked each time one was plugged in?

>

>Is it difficult to perfectly emulate discrete logic games? Yes, but it seems that every time I check the MAME WIP board that somebody's fixed a bug in the 68020 core, or some other microprocessor, so apparently that's pretty difficult too.

>

>Is the code reusable, or is it necessary to program each discrete logic game from scratch? The code certainly could be reusable, but its a pretty big design and implementation task. But so was getting MAME to the state that it's in today.

>

>Should discrete logic games be in MAME? As a documentation project, I don't see how you could, or why you would, want to justify excluding them. They would certainly be more suited to a brand new environment that is tailored to their subtleties, but they nevertheless seem to fit easily under the scope of the original MAME precepts.

>

>Minke

>

[Post a reply]

Name: stratjakt Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (14:27)
Subject: gambling games?
From:
its odd that i havent heard about anyone removing the Sente diagnostic board? or the videodisc controllors... THESE are classic video games, nicola?

yea i used to have tuns of fun in the arcade diagnosing stuff and looking at the videodisc error message screen.. yeehaaw...

anyways, i say every arcade game was a gambling game, with odds of 1:infinity and ya'd lose yer quarter everytime..

i woulda cared more about this a year ago today, but I've tired of emulation in general and i'll take the bucks i had earmarked for a HotRod and spend it on my dreamcast, or snag more *real* nes titles at funcoland or somethin..

i have a feeling these latest developments are just gonna replace MAME's first M with an L.

i dont care what he does to his project, but dont try and tell me what a video game is or isnt, cuz believe me i know..

[Post a reply]

Name: stratjakt Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (14:42)
Subject: ...addendum
From:
i also wanted to mention that i'm an avid fan and collector of REAL arcade and console video games, and if i find a video poker machine for the right price, it has a place in my heart and my rec room right between my frogger and my superman..

and as long as we're takin stuff out, take out the home versions of the neogeo games, ya freak.. they aint for arcade machines.. if yer gonna back up your project to be all literal an stuff, dont do it half-assed..

and as for pong.. who gives a rats ass about pong.. not me.. theres lotsa pong 'simulators' (we call them clones or copies in real life) and i bet any high school kid could write himself a pong in computerin class..

which, specifically, of the thousands of pong machines that hit the market was that one supposed to 'simulate' anyways?

[Post a reply]

Name: Colin Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:29)
Subject: Re: ...addendum
From:
Err.. the ORIGINAL Pong. Juergen got hold of tatty schematics, made some mistakes, and corrected them. Read his diary of what he did.

Any idiot could get some one to do a discrete logic for the game engine and then do a video driver of what remains, and tack on a sample playback routine.

But he didn't. He went to some trouble and invested a lot of time into a VERY important part of Arcade history.

Pong, by definition SHOULDN'T be in MAME, as it isn't emulation. BUT it SHOULD stay in MAME (IMNSHO) because not many discrete logic games were produced, so the rules can be bent on this. It is SO important that it should stay that words cannot express how strongly I feel.

A clone of Pong was the very first arcade game I ever played, so as long as people don't do a "Me too" clone we'll be okay. History should be recorded. Mame (being active) is more permanent than any other project. Keep it in.

Kick out the fruities. The only way they should stay is if you remove the scans of the wheels and the lights. Cut it down to the logic circuits.
This is what we have with Space Ace and Dragon's Lair. How mant people can play these games at home? And how many of you are playing it on a PC? And how many on a Mac? ZERO, I'll wager. If you folks feel strongly about keeping them in create your own FME project. Many cores are available free. Bolt them together, add samples of quids being cer-chunked out the bottom. Scan the wheels, scan the light overlays.

Its far easier to do (I have a friend who used to work on them). The lighting wiring looms look like hell, but the actual logic of the systems is VERY primitive. Speed is not an issue like it is with, say, Space Harrier, Rolling Thunder 2, Phelios, or I - Robot. And besides, do you enjoy looking back at your time when you were addicted to fruities "Just another pound...its about to pay out big time..."?

[Post a reply]

Name: Colin Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:29)
Subject: Re: ...addendum
From:
Err.. the ORIGINAL Pong. Juergen got hold of tatty schematics, made some mistakes, and corrected them. Read his diary of what he did.

Any idiot could get some one to do a discrete logic for the game engine and then do a video driver of what remains, and tack on a sample playback routine.

But he didn't. He went to some trouble and invested a lot of time into a VERY important part of Arcade history.

Pong,

[Post a reply]

Name: Phil Stroffolino Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (16:13)
Subject: Re: ...addendum
From:
>i also wanted to mention that i'm an avid fan and collector of REAL arcade and console video games, and if i find a video poker machine for the right price, it has a place in my heart and my rec room right between my frogger and my superman..

Most collectors hate gambling machines with a passion. Hell will freeze over when you see a gambling machine listed at www.vaps.org.

[Post a reply]

Name: stratjakt Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (14:42)
Subject: ...addendum
From:
i also wanted to mention that i'm an avid fan and collector of REAL arcade and console video games, and if i find a video poker machine for the right price, it has a place in my heart and my rec room right between my frogger and my superman..

and as long as we're takin stuff out, take out the home versions of the neogeo games, ya freak.. they aint for arcade machines.. if yer gonna back up your project to be all literal an stuff, dont do it half-assed..

and as for pong.. who gives a rats ass about pong.. not me.. theres lotsa pong 'simulators' (we call them clones or copies in real life) and i bet any high school kid could write himself a pong in computerin class..

which, specifically, of the thousands of pong machines that hit the market was that one supposed to 'simulate' anyways?

[Post a reply]

Name: stratjakt Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (14:41)
Subject: ...addendum
From:
i also wanted to mention that i'm an avid fan and collector of REAL arcade and console video games, and if i find a video poker machine for the right price, it has a place in my heart and my rec room right between my frogger and my superman..

and as long as we're takin stuff out, take out the home versions of the neogeo games, ya freak.. they aint for arcade machines.. if yer gonna back up your project to be all literal an stuff, dont do it half-assed..

and as for pong.. who gives a rats ass about pong.. not me.. theres lotsa pong 'simulators' (we call them clones or copies in real life) and i bet any high school kid could write himself a pong in computerin class..

which, specifically, of the thousands of pong machines that hit the market was that one supposed to 'simulate' anyways?

[Post a reply]

Name: Kilroy Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (12:08)
Subject: my two cents...
From:
Well, I read through the longer list of replies I've ever seen here and have my own opinions like most of the posters (other than the amusing mafia reference).

Gamblers will probably not get what they want from the emulated versions in MAME. Most gamble because of the thrill you get when you win and the machine shoots out more than what you put in (I've enjoyed spending $40 between both Las Vegas and Atlantic City). The documentation effort that allows these games to be run off of their original platform is worthwhile and deserves to be kept in MAME.

As for Pong, It's the grandadddy of 'em all and will be sorely missed. (That's the only one my fiance is interested in).

And one other note, none of these are perfectly accurate due to the fact that you're not putting quaters in (and truly spending them) and experiencing the feeling of spending anything other than your time and storage space on them (and can't be because of the license agreement). But they are the best and most centrally done.

Nicola, let them stay, they are doing no harm, and might (doubtful though) be doing some good.

Kilroy

[Post a reply]

Name: Karl H. Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (11:09)
Subject: Gambling machines and the future of arcade
From:
Actually I kind of support Nicola here. I'm starting to hate gambling machines with a vengance. Why? Not because of any morality issues. If grandma wants to use all her money on gambling, that's her business.

But, at least here in Norway, gambling machines have singlehandedly killed off true arcade games. Five or ten years ago, you could walk into a shopping center or large shop and find games like Outrun, Pac-man, all the games we know and love. Walk into the same store today, and you'll find three or four gambling machines, nothing else.

Why? Because operators make more money off of gambling machines, of course.

True arcade games are extinct except in a few seedy arcades which have a few newer machines + a few pinballs. These arcades are few and far between.

OK, this might be a bit off topic, but realize this : True arcade machines and gambling machines are not friends, they are bitter enemies. Which would you rather have?

[Post a reply]

Name: BigJ Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (11:00)
Subject: Gambling with MAME
From:
One advantage of having gambling games emulated is that it may encourage people to try the odds (for free) against the machine, without actually losing any money. This will prove that no matter how much "money" is used, the punter will never end up in profit.

Becomes a positive then, doesn't it?

[Post a reply]

Name: Kurgan Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (10:35)
Subject: Don't get too carried away...
From:
Oh and btw, if you want to be taken seriously, I wouldn't go around comparing a guy who writes an emulator to a murdering dictator. It's just not sound reasoning, and it's the fallacious hook, that trie to use the boogeyman image on somebody who isn't even CLOSE to the badness that is that fear figure.

Another thing, nobody said it was a "religious" reason. If he's Catholic, that doesn't mean squat. If he's an atheist, a Buddhist, Confucianist, Janist, I don't care, and that doesn't mean his opinion is based on his religion or anyone else's.

I would be curious as to why he feels the gambling games are bad. If he simply feels that they aren't fun, or whatever, then I don't see a reason to exclude them. He doesn't have to program the emulation for them, but if somebody else on the team is willing to do it, then he should be open to that.

Of course if he IS under a moral obligation to keep gambling out of his emulator, then I'm all for it. Really, I wouldn't want to be expected to support something that was against my conscience. And if it's his own work, it's not really censorship.

However, as I do not wish the games to be removed, simply on principle, I would ask what his specific objections were, and if they could be debated. I'd like to keep it open, and not have it all so mysterious is what I'm getting at. Since we all enjoy it so much, and use it, we all want a say in how it's run (since the Mame team seems to care about what we think).

Kurgan

*Email me if you'd like to talk about this with me. I can keep an open mind as to your side of the story.*

kurgan@iastate (no spam please)

[Post a reply]

Name: Atomic Skull Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (9:56)
Subject: Mortal Kombat slowness
From:
Actually, there's a very good reason why the Midway games are slow... They're using a TMS304010 (a 32-bit CPU/Graphics DSP - a really wierd chip that was basicly a graphics chip with microcode and an instruction set like a CPU). This thing was commonly used in CAD workstations in it's time, this isn't a 68000...

As for Rolling Thunder II, the Namco System-II was pretty much *THE* most powerfull 2-D 16-bit arcade board ever made, it made a Neo-Geo look like a Genesis/Megadrive.

[Post a reply]

Name: Richard Bannister Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (9:29)
Subject: Some spam...
From:
I put a poll up on this subject at http://www.bannister.org/software/.

Interestingly enough, about 50% of users think Nicola is wrong to remove the games. I certainly do.

Regards,
Richard

[Post a reply]

Name: Rich (Delcocat@aol.com) Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (9:19)
Subject: Should not edit out MAME GAMES!
From:
I do not feel any of the games from MAME should be removed. This takes away
2 important things I feel from what MAME was purposed to do. Number 1 is to make available as many memorable games as possible in as true to arcade fashion as can be done. Number 2 i feel is that there are hundreds if not thousands of games out there to choose from with the key word being "choose". If MAME doesn't offer these games or worse yet takes them away, then obviously it takes away one of a persons
most valuable inalienable rights to choose what he or she likes regardless of someone elses opinion including unfortunately that of the person or persons who created MAME. This would be a black eye to their team I feel. As i mentioned there are plenty of games out there to choose from and if some of them offend someone then they obviously do not have to incorporate them into their files or life. Just like T.V. today (which by the way is much worse a medium for values of which some are concerned and more in your face) you simply have to deal with it or turn the channel. In regards to the gmbling, why should a couple bad apples spoil it for the rest? To me, the MAME games emulated thus far are for the most part pre 90's and are what have been deemed classics. There have obviously been spin offs of these classics (some good some bad) but I feel most of these games are and will continue to be the best value and standard of entertainment for a long time to come that can not even touch todays games when it comes to offending people graphically or morally etc. I been a video game fan practically since their inception and like many have spent countless dollars on systems and games (which I still have) and every time I purchased a system and another game for the particular system at the time whether it was Oddysey or Sega Genesis I always found myself wishing and hoping for one thing and one thing that always fell far short of my expectations and that was as close to true life arcade emulation! What a long time we've all waited and what a breath of fresh air it is to finally have this made availble by people that are as passionate about this subject as I am (maybe more?) So one last final question looms? WHY TAKE IT AWAY??? Your thoughts?

[Post a reply]

Name: Colin Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:39)
Subject: Re: Should not edit out MAME GAMES!
From:
You're missing the point of WHY they've been taken out.

Pong isn't based on roms.

In the case of the Fruities there's way too much simulation there (samples in arcade machines are being removed all the time; that CAN'T be done with the light overlays and the images on the wheels). Also part of the fun is putting money in and getting money out.

[Post a reply]

Name: Kurgan Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (8:27)
Subject: Keep the video games
From:
Video game: a game that is presented in a video. Sounds to me like gambling machines are thus able to be classified as "video games."

They also would fit into "coin-op" and "arcade" and even "classic" in some cases. So what's wrong? If the leader of the project wishes not to include them, fine, that's his decision, but, is it based on any sound reasoning, or merely his personal dislike of a specific genre of game? I am not into gambling games myself, but I'm sure there are folks who are. Why exclude them? There's plenty of "classic" games which I dislike tremendously, but I don't wish them to be removed from Mame simply because I dislike them.

If violence, nudity, gore, politics, religion, etc are okay in video games, why not gambling?

As to Pong, I think that Pong itself isn't a huge reason to celebrate, but it is hailed as an all-time great milestone in video gaming history. It's a classic. I would be happy if there was another simulation of Pong as good or better than the one in Mame that was seperate. To me this isn't an issue.

I have heard some folks say in the past that you should not "innovate" but "emulate." Let me just say that this philosophy is utterly unsound. From the get go, we are "innovating" by allowing the games to be played on alien hardware. Plus we're adding things like different res modes, samples, cheats, menus, front-ends, etc.

Like it or not, we are innovating no matter what we do, so why limit ourselves with semantics?

I suppose if this all goes according to the trend, then we can hope for unofficial Mame versions to still support these games...

Kurgan

[Post a reply]

Name: RisqMan Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (8:09)
Subject: Removing Gambling Games...
From:
Just because Nicola ORIGINALLY started MAME does not mean he has SOLE REIGN over the entire project!
There are so many OTHER contributors to the project that they should be asked!
If not for these other people MAME would probably still be only emulating under 100 games!
I was a Beta tester for 3 other Emulators and when other programmers were contirbuting to the projects they were asked (along with the testers) what the general opinion was and why!
It seems like Nicola is imposing his "Religous Opinions" by doing this on the rest of the world!
Isn't Nicola Italian? Aren't the majority of Italians Catholic?
Don't Catholic Church's hsve BINGO regularly?
Isn't BINGO gambling?
Hmmm, makes you think!
-Risq

[Post a reply]

Name: BubNort Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (7:31)
Subject: Sound Familliar
From:
Hmm.. Nic... I remember a guy back not too long ago who had similar ideas about the country he lead. It didnt go over very well for him, tho...

Damn... what was his name...

Oh yeah!

Adolph Hitler.

[Post a reply]

Name: WithHeld Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (7:29)
Subject: Censorship
From:
I dont care who controls what. If a documentation project refuses to document "certain types" of games because someone on the project, the leader or otherwise, has a personal preference, then it is NOT a documentation project anymore, but a "Personal Favorites" list, and MUST NOT be held as an authoritative view.

The documenting body MUST BE IMPARTIAL.

Personally, I thing ROM's which were ORIGINALLY gambling oriented are no longer gambling when the capacity for exchanging currency is removed.
Also, PONG, despite the fact that has not real ROM's to speak of, is STILL an Arcade Classic worthy of inclusion.

[Post a reply]

Name: Antonio Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (6:47)
Subject: Pong e Video Poker
From:
Nicola, MAME e' tuo e puoi farci quello che ti pare.
Pero' pensaci bene prima di agire, se rimuovi dei giochi ti troverai di sicuro tra i piedi qualcosa tipo BETMAME o MAMECASINO o roba del genere.

Ti consiglio di lasciare i giochi in questione nel codice e semplicemente non svilupparli piu', ma dedicarsi al bug fix degli altri.

E poi i tuo progetto iniziale di emulazione dei videogiochi ha ormai trasceso se stesso e ha dato vita ad un filone di emulazione di tutto l'emulabile - io non ci vedrei niente di male ad emulare anche la logica di un ascensore o di una di quelle nuove lavatrici FuzzyLogic - forse si potrebbe creare una sorta di SUPER EMULATORE in grado di riprodurre tutte le CPU in circolazione e poi ognuno si scarica solo quelle che gli servono per emulare i suoi giochi preferiti.

In ogni caso massimi complimenti per il lavoro svolto fino ad oggi.

Ciao

[Post a reply]

Name: Me2 Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (5:57)
Subject: Gambling Games and Pong
From:

I disagree with removal of both pong and the gambling games.

According to the official MAME site, MAME "was designed to digitally preserve games and gameplay that would otherwise be forgotten in the modern day rat race of console games and computers".

I accept that pong is always going to be a true simulation, it is never going to be emulatable in the same way as Space Invaders/etc. If you define the MAME purpose as to only emulate games then yes it does not fit in with simulating pong. However, simulating pong is better than nothing at all and still ensures that the gameplay and history of it is preserved, which is surely what MAME is all about.

On the topic of gambling games, they don't buzz me personally but they are a large part of many people's youth, and they still have their own contribution to the history of arcade gaming. They may not be classed as "arcade games" in the true sense, but they invariably live alongside the true arcade games in arcades and in peoples memories, and they've contributed to videogaming history, and so I think they are worthy of emulation through MAME.

My other comment is that removing them simply wouldn't serve any positive purpose. The code for them is there and available, if they are removed from the main code branch then all we will see is yet another bunch of unofficial MAME releases.

[Post a reply]

Name: Hellrazor Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (5:26)
Subject: sinferno@netins.net
From:
I have always felt that the only "bad" games are ones that aren't emulated perfectly. While I support his right to circumcize his baby as he sees fit, the conflict theorist in me just sees it as just another typical slap on the wrist to the avid emulation enthusiast. What the $!@#, take it all away. Beat the I.S.D.A. at their own game.

[Post a reply]

Name: alex Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (5:19)
Subject: my 3 quid
From:
Removing a driver simply because he (nicola) doesnt liek that type of game for some personal / religious / god knows reason is simply silly.

Imagine how you would feel after spending hours and hours writing and debugging a driver for MAME and then having them basically throw it back in your face...

My opinion of the emulation scene in general is lowering every day. :(


[Post a reply]

Name: Eric Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (7:24)
Subject: Re: my 3 quid
From:
>Removing a driver simply because he (nicola) doesnt liek that type of game for some personal / religious / god knows reason is simply silly.

It has nothing to do with any of those things.

The gambling games are being removed simply because they do not fit into the definition of "video game" that MAME is built around. He never once mentioned any morality issue, dislike or anything else like that in his reasoning.

[Post a reply]

Name: Bah Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (8:48)
Subject: Re: Re: my 3 quid
From:

> The gambling games are being removed simply because they do not fit into the definition of "video game" that MAME is built around. He never once mentioned any morality issue, dislike or anything else like that in his reasoning.

>

Ok, so now they are dictating what a 'video game' is for us? Why were they included in the first place if they did not fit the grand scheme?

It sucks, like the license... 'We don't like Tim Eckel, so we will fill the license with silly rules'.


[Post a reply]

Name: Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (10:24)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: my 3 quid
From:
>Ok, so now they are dictating what a 'video game' is for us? Why were they included in the first place if they did not fit the grand scheme?

Sure! And you must eat cornflakes for breakfast!

Don't be ridiculous. I think the category of arcade video games Nicola is after is pretty clear cut.

>It sucks, like the license... 'We don't like Tim Eckel, so we will fill the license with silly rules'.

LOL

[Post a reply]

Name: What can you do? Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (5:51)
Subject: Re: my 3 quid
From:
>Removing a driver simply because he (nicola) doesnt liek that type of game for some personal / religious / god knows reason is simply silly.

>

>Imagine how you would feel after spending hours and hours writing and debugging a driver for MAME and then having them basically throw it back in your face...

>

>My opinion of the emulation scene in general is lowering every day. :(

>

>

mame has a control over arcade emulation, despite being a documentation project. and since nicola has control over mame, he controls the arcade emulation scene.



[Post a reply]

Name: k Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (9:05)
Subject: Re: Re: my 3 quid
From:
>mame has a control over arcade emulation, despite being a documentation project. and since nicola has control over mame, he controls the arcade emulation scene.
^
well he shouldnt - this is the point everyone is trying to make, obviously you have to appreciate nicola's creation of the project, but really, really can anyone say that removing something someone spent ages writing is a nice thing to do, just because you 'feel' like it... *sigh*

[Post a reply]

Name: Ernesto Corvi Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (5:02)
Subject: Gambling Pong
From:
I'm just going to point out a couple of things that I havent seen in the messages here, and that I think eventually balanced in the decision taken by Nicola:

- Gambling machines have a different standing point when it comes to law. They go under different regulations than arcade machines, in most civilized countries in the world anyways, and its quite easy to understand why. Eventually laws are the ones that define what anything or everything is, and how it is regulated, besides of the internal components. A good example is computers. Some of them are qualified and regulated as 'military weapons' on some countries, and yet they're still computer. So based on laws, in most countries, you cant basically say a gambling machine is indeed an arcade machine.

- The problem with Pong, in my understanding, is that one little simulation bug in, say, a capacitor discharge time can effectively screw up the whole game experience. Unlike samples, where you may get a little higher or lower tone, but still retain the whole playing experience, simulated games like Pong can suffer greatly from a minimum issue like that. This is not to mention that Mame had to be modified to come up with a non-existant CPU to properly make this game work. That speaks for itself on how the base Mame design may just not be suitable for these kind of simulation.

Im going to reserve my own opinions on these subjects. My only intention was to share these tidbits with you all, and i hope everyone realizes that the source code for Mame has always been out there, so i believe any programmer can take the information available and make his/her own emulators with these games.

Just my 2c.

Ernesto.

[Post a reply]

Name: Mirage Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (4:57)
Subject: Psx emulation
From:
I just heard SEGA is developing a Playsation (1) emulator for the Dreamcast! SONY must be getting really scared now.



[Post a reply]

Name: Cave-In Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (4:25)
Subject: CAVE (Clasic Arcade Videogame Emulator)
From:
I like the idea posted on the MAME message
board about renaming MAME to CAVE or something
other than "MAME" which does not fit the program
Nicola wants to make. Arcades were around
long before videogames and saying "Multiple
Arcade Machine" implies multiple types
of arcade MACHINES. Machine does not imply
a videogame neccessarily. If Nicola only
wants to emulate classic coin-op videogames
commonly found in arcades (need I also remind
everyone that street locations make up a LARGE
number of machine sales, not JUST to "Arcades.")
then he should call MAME something that means
just classic coin-op videogames, IMO.

[Post a reply]

Name: Eric Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (7:26)
Subject: Re: CAVE (Clasic Arcade Videogame Emulator)
From:
>I like the idea posted on the MAME message

>board about renaming MAME to CAVE or something

Of course you like the idea, it was your idea. Why pretend to be someone else agreeing with yourself? kook.

[Post a reply]

Name: Mirage Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (4:08)
Subject: Mame
From:
What is this? exkluding video sluts? Oh god no!

Raine's dead and I just heard : GEOSHOCK is DEAD too!
(Geoshock.dhs.org).

What is the world coming to?

I think i'll go home and get really REALLY drunk now.

Have a nice weekend everone!

[Post a reply]

Name: DAMN MAME Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (4:03)
Subject: get to work!
From:
plan stupidity, get on with the damn development. Stop adding games that don't work and FIX the games you have added. Whats with this crap about adding games that don't work? There is no excuse for the lack of speed. Come on people (development team) stop crying about stupid stuff like this and get fixing all the damn problems MAME has! I think they should stop adding games to MAME for a couple of releases and focus on FIXing and Speeding up the current games and drivers.

[Post a reply]

Name: Mex Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (17:40)
Subject: Re: get to work!
From:
>Hey. This is more like it! I agree.

[Post a reply]

Name: Megaace Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (4:01)
Subject: Nicola is right
From:
The facts are:

a) Gambling Machines are not videogames, because you put money, and you receive money. In videogames, you doesn't receive money.

b) PONG is a simulation, not a emulation.

c) MAME is a Nicola's creation. He has been working free for TWO YEARS!!! We are very lucky with this, so Nicola can do whatever he want to do with this issue.

[Post a reply]

Name: Larry Johnson Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (6:20)
Subject: Re: Nicola is right
From:
>The facts are:

Nicola has done a great job of leading the creation and growth of MAME. I like almost everything about MAME except for the Gambling games and the extreme violent games. I dont believe in gambling and wish they werent supported because of my kids. I do not want them to be exposed to gambling in any form.

[Post a reply]

Name: Nightshadow Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (14:02)
Subject: Re: Re: Nicola is right
From:
>Nicola has done a great job of leading the creation and growth of MAME. I like almost everything about MAME except for the Gambling games and the extreme violent games. I dont believe in gambling and wish they werent supported because of my kids. I do not want them to be exposed to gambling in any form.

That is just a plain ridiculus statement. MAME does not come with any ROMs, so you pick the games you want to play. If you do not want gambling or violent games, then don't play them.

The only reason you should be playing a ROM in MAME is if you own the original board and since you dislike gambling and violent games, you wouldn't have the original board anyways.

Regarding Nicola, I agree it his project (even though he could be considered more of a project leader now that more people have joined). But, a decision that affects the whole project should be left up to everyone who has contributed to the MAME community.

[Post a reply]

Name: Jack Kayman Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (3:46)
Subject: future of MAME
From:
I think that Pong and Gambling games must stay, because every emulated games were a treasure and pride of every REAL videoplayer.The problem about gambling games is money, in MAME I didn't win nothing:(...if anyone won some money playing with MAME please mail me;)
Where I can find gambling games roms for MAME?
Bye Bye

[Post a reply]

Name: Glue Sniffin' Ed Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (3:30)
Subject: Mame game removals
From:
Well...I personally think all the PacMan type games should be removed!!! I am quite obese, and it is extremely offensive to me to see a game where a creature literally engorges itself by eating everything in sight!!! This game is causing me to get even fatter!!! It influences me every day...hell...even the little voices I hear coming from inside my head tell me to EAT EAT EAT!!! Every time I see those PacMan type games!!!!

Heh....don't take that statement literally, it's merely an expression of how absurd I think it is that someone should impose their moral viewpoints on me. I play guitar in a "Christian" Oi band, and I am an atheist!! They don't push religion on me, and I don't push atheism on them. We get along great!! We both respect each others opinions, and realize that we must accept the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. As much as I disagree with their Christian viewpoints....I, as well as them, realize that we can tolerate each others opinions.

If you don't like gambling games...don't play them, but please...respect my right to my own opinion :-)

Your Faithful Bitch,
G.S.E.

[Post a reply]

Name: Nightshadow Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (14:05)
Subject: Re: Mame game removals
From:
>Heh....don't take that statement literally, it's merely an expression of how absurd I think it is that someone should impose their moral viewpoints on me. I play guitar in a "Christian" Oi band, and I am an atheist!! They don't push religion on me, and I don't push atheism on them. We get along great!! We both respect each others opinions, and realize that we must accept the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. As much as I disagree with their Christian viewpoints....I, as well as them, realize that we can tolerate each others opinions.

Don't give me that atheist cr*p. You wouldn't be allowed in a Christian band if you were atheist (maybe Catholic, but not atheist). That is like saying I work at Microsoft, but I don't do Windows.

[Post a reply]

Name: Eric Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (7:29)
Subject: Re: Mame game removals
From:
>Heh....don't take that statement literally, it's merely an expression of how absurd I think it is that someone should impose their moral viewpoints on me.

It's not a moral viewpoint. It's a logical decision based on the fact that "gambling machines" are a different category than "video games". Morality never was, and will not be an issue in his decision.

[Post a reply]

Name: [atari] Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (3:20)
Subject: What Games Are Worthy???
From:
I love mame and think it's a great emulator but i feel nicola needs to take in mind he is not the only one workin on this emulator now, and also doesn't he care about how we feel ? or don't we matter? Don't get me wrong I think he has done a great thing with Mame but if we take out Pong and Gambling games what's next?

[Post a reply]

Name: Sir F. McGee Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (2:49)
Subject:
From:
Christ, you people are making it sound like you should have some kind of say in this matter. Guess what? Nicola can do whatever the hell he wants to MAME, seeing how he's the one running the show.

You people are bitching about the wrong aspect of MAME anyways. It's ungodly slow, and in my opinion, it's very unhealthy for emulation. Once MAME emulates a game, no one wants to emulate it better, and thus we are stuck with a horrendously slow, often incomplete, neglected driver for a game.

[Post a reply]

Name: Why Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (2:44)
Subject: Removing Games
From:
Well, first of all, I have to say that the final decision is on MAME dev team. Is up to them to decide what to do.

However, I just would like to say that altough Pong is a simulated game (circuits instead of Roms), there is someting very importat in common between this simulated game and all the emulated games: all are COIN-OPS. If the main objetive of MAME is to have the most amount of arcade games emulated for archival porpouses, then I think that Pong should be there.

I have read that also gambling games are going to be removed. Well, i personally dislike this games, however, my opinion is that if they where at arcades, they should be emulated, no matter what kind of game where and which technology uses. Otherway, if gambling games are removed, then PINBALL games could be removed aswell, an then...

[Post a reply]

Name: NLS Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (2:43)
Subject: MAME REMOVALS
From:
About Pong.

People have P3/500 now people. Simulating a few AND/OR gates and a stupid display circuit is not THAT hard.

We can ACCEPT this inaccuracy for the time being, until something better takes over! DO NOT remove. I agree with the original message "Being #1 has it's advantages". Pong is a special case.

About removing Gambling arcade games.

1) Going into this, ENFORCES it. If you cut the drivers, this would give place to ANOTHER team, making a "non supported version" that does include those drivers. Just let them be, all this discussion is useless. MAME doesn't need all this analysis for what is to be emulated and what is not. For me "it has a screen, something to control it, you put coins in it" = arcade. As plain as that.

2) A knife (and gambling arcades are NOT knives) doesn't kill a person, an other person does.

3) If someone makes a device that collects coins, and CAN PAY YOU BACK, being controlled by code IN MAME (which there is none I guess) and sells it... EVEN then, I wouldn't agree on removing gambling arcades, because if such a guy exists and plans on making this, then:
a) There would be legal issues on selling something WITH MAME IN IT.
b) (or maybe) Let him do whatever he wants, since building such a device is a complex thing by itself, so it's his problem, if such a machine can be created, can be sold and can make profit.

4) If MAME is DISCONNECTED (as it IS) with the ROMs it can emulate, WHY on Earth should someone remove the ability to support any kind of ROMs we OWN? Remember, we should use ROMs we own, so if someone owns a gambling arcade it's HIS/HER problem if it uses MAME to play with it! AM I WRONG?

Some people have said that this kind of programs could be included in an other emulator like MESS is for computers. I disagree.
a) MESS project WANTS to be included into MAME some time in the future.
b) Then we should make different MAME for each game category? A "platform mame"? A "vector mame"? A "low resolution only mame"? A "monochrome mame"? A "my favourite game drivers only mame"?

I have played real gambling arcade machines only once or twice in my life. I prefer the mechanical brothers of these devices, although I haven't played with them much too. In MAME I have played with such games again only once or twice (ok not including the one time I go into EVERY game to make a snapshot). So speaking in the sense of "need", no I don't need those games, I will never miss them. It's in the sense of my personal philosophy that I want them to stay. Cencorship? No thanks. Discrimination? No no. Someone else to decide for me? NO, I am Greek and my ancestors have died for this. We are in the year of our lord 2000AD. Remember?

A word to Nicola (we have the same name). When you made this project an open source GNU one, it meant that decisions are not only yours to take now. Maybe you are a fine programmer, you started MAME, but MAME without the team would have been nothing. In other words you by yourself wouldn't be able to make MAME what MAME is. Am I wrong? Even if you decided to stop developing MAME, then MAME (maybe by another name) wouldn't stop, because 1000s of people have the source, and can do what they want with it. Let desisions to the mass or make MAME like Bleem and take them yourself (and fail). Kisses.

NLS

[Post a reply]

Name: Daemon Poet Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (2:25)
Subject: Come on now.....
From:
To take a famous quote "good grief". I mean, seriously, is this what it has come down to? You people are starting to sound like our parents. We're the gaming community for crying out loud. We won hard battles to keep games like mortal kombat and other bloody games so we could have our freedoms. Now, pull a few levers or hold a card and you are out? Get real! One discimination leads to another. And as for the mame reason for discontinuation, if its video, eats quarters for breakfast and laughs in your face because you have nothing to show for your troubles and money, then its got to be a good old fashioned video game.

[Post a reply]

Name: LordZardos Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (1:27)
Subject: Does it Belong?
From:
In my opinion, if it is in a wooden box, and takes a coin, it should be emulated! I'm sure some people like to sit and put virtual coins into the video slot on MAME, and see if they win (or more likely lose). There is always casino type games on the shelf at the local store, so there must be an interest. What's the difference between pressing '3' to play "Joust", and pressing '3' to play slots? It's all just for fun, and nostalgia. We've all seen the video gambling machines, and if you haven't, you can try them for FREE in MAME, just like any other arcade game you haven't seen.
As for Pong, it's the GrandDaddy of video games so it should be left in, of course! Obviously it's more of a simulator than the other games because it's hard to put actual binary logic chips into your PC (unless you buy the PONG ISA card -- just kidding! 8) Like another person said earlier, the vector games are using a "simulator" to control the red, blue, and green guns of the vector monitor, so should we remove them too?

LordZardos

[Post a reply]

Name: Tommy Tucker Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (1:14)
Subject: RE. Eric
From:
> Nicola only cited the fact that they > don't fit into the scope of what MAME > is trying to do, not that they are
> immoral or anything like that as his > reason for taking them out of MAME.

Not correct.

Taken from http://www.arcadeheaven.com/nicola1.txt

The original mail to the devlist was as above.

"I profoundly hate gambling games, and seeing them in arcades alongside real
games makes me sick. "

If that isn't personal bios what is?

He's removing them cos he doesn't like them and is clutching at straws and any excuse to try to justify it.

People often say you can't close a roms site because the information is out there, and once out it can't be "forgotten"

Same with the gambling games. The info is out there and a so called documentation project should document it.

Its a crass decision and we all know it.




[Post a reply]

Name: Tommy Tucker Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (1:10)
Subject: RE. Eric
From:

[Post a reply]

Name: Paratech Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (23:54)
Subject: Another Thought
From:
Sadly the Mame team can do with MAME as they see fit, though I disagree with them regarding this issue...

But what next? Let's take out the Porn games? Games made after a certain date?
Violent games...

[Post a reply]

Name: Anti Claus Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (2:12)
Subject: Re: Another Thought
From:
There are porn games?!

Which... ones... ?

[Post a reply]

Name: Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (20:45)
Subject: Re: Re: Another Thought
From:
Poker Ladies, Gals Panic, Zero Zone....
Poker, Qix with pictures of women in stages of undressing, columns with nudes....

There are others...

[Post a reply]

Name: Obi Wan Celeri Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (21:30)
Subject: See it in another perspective
From:
In my personnal opinion, emulating
gambling games is actually GOOD.

Forget about what type of game these are
and think for a second that MAME has
actually helped out a lot of people who
are addicted to gambling; instead of
blowing their money on stupid games,
they can actually simulate the game and
get their fix.

I know this was not the objective of
MAME per se, but still, it's something
to ponder.

Compulsive gambler, mameholic... it's
all the same :)

Obi Wan Celeri

[Post a reply]

Name: Al Snop Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (21:10)
Subject: Who Cares?????
From:
Who cares? I'm sure at least one of the "Unofficial Versions" Nicola loves will continue to let you play all the freakin' slot machine games you want. All I want to play is Donkey Kong and about 1000 other games I remember from my childhood. Let other programmers worry about gambling games and let the MAME team worry about to make the sound in Cyberball perfect! Wouldn't you people rather see a game you want emulated, over a game that will just sit on you hard drive and add another icon to MAME???


[Post a reply]

Name: Gerald Gorman Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (21:02)
Subject: Heh.. funny. Let's get a step back
From:
Mame 36 RC1 (or maybe the first betas where the removal will ocurr), will be the first mame ever to have less games than the previous version. That's funny

Maybe the next step in MAME will be removing some video modes or resolutions, because Nicola doesn't like pixel doubling or scanlines or whatever. It's simply up to him, but I don't agree at all. Gambling machines are for playing, so the arcade ones. The difference? none at all. On one you get cash, on the other excitement or fun. (cash is fun too.)

From Chile

Gerald Gorman

[Post a reply]

Name: Chris Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (20:41)
Subject: Here's My Views...
From:
What is MAME? MAME is a Multi-
Machine Arcade Emulator, right?
What did Nicola originally say
was the purpose of MAME? To find
as much information on arcade boards
and emulate as many as he could
, right? He went out looking for contributors and the whole nine yards. 2000 games later,
he decides to pick and choose which
games his super program should
emulate? But, I thought he just
said...This is LIFE. The man is
human. Technically, it is his
program and he's the BOSS. He's
entitled to change is mind, especially
since he's doing all this sh!t for
free.

Now, that last paragraph was just
to emphasize reality and people in
general. This paragraph is on
what I think on the whole matter.
First of all, if he's worried
about legal and moral issues toward
games then I say that all bootleg
games be taken out as well. If
that's not immoral, I dunno what
is. Secondly, I don't understand
why so many authors poured their
resources into MAME in the first
place. #1 it's slow, #2 it's slow,
and #3 it's SLOW! There's no
excuse in the world that can explain
why my PII366MMX can't handle
a game like Rolling Thunder 2
or Mortal Kombat. Many of the games
came from outside authors. So why
do the authors and everyone else
even put up with that sh!t?

Thirdly, if Nicola thinks it's such
a problem to have gambling games in MAME, why don't some of the authors pool
some resources of their own and
make their own bigger, faster, and
better MAME? First it was Callus,
then it was System 16, Raine
recently followed the MAME Revolution, Retrocade looks like the next
and all for what? So some "hiprocital" guy can sit back and crack his whip at you? Telling you that what you coded for him is morally wrong?

Now, I rest my case...

Chris :o)

[Post a reply]

Name: frank Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (19:29)
Subject: This sucks
From:
That's one reason that all the other EMU's shouldn't merge with MAME. Too much control in one place.

[Post a reply]

Name: ScrawnyPaleGuy Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (18:28)
Subject: Hmm...
From:
Would it be possible to make a special build of MAME which actually could dispense tokens/money? With all the devices PC's support today, I don't see that as being entirely out of the question. Everyone who has a HotRod/HannahHo setup seems to love how it helps recreate the feel of the arcade. So why wouldn't some gambling aficiendo want build a fuctioning video slot machine that he won $10,000 from years ago, using his PC, MAME, and some external devices plugged into a parallel or USB port? Or, (now here's the part which may concern the MAME team) is it unimaginable that some small-time casino owner could try to save a couple of bucks and build a bunch of video slot machines the same way, with a PC and MAME, instead of actually buying a few? This could be a legal/moral concern to the MAME team.

[Post a reply]

Name: Team Static Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (17:55)
Subject: Video Poker
From:
Also note that on all video slots it states "For amusement only" somewhere on them. May we also use them for our amusement? Censorship of games is truly ridiculous.

[Post a reply]

Name: Wraith Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (16:54)
Subject: Video Poker
From:
Well. All I know is here in South Carolina, by definition of the law, Video Poker machines are Video Games since Gambling is illegal in this state.

Of course, what the Hell do we know? We still fly the Confederate Flag over our Statehouse.......

Personally, I think they should stay. Pong should have it's own standalone app tho.

[Post a reply]

Name: AUX Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (16:26)
Subject: they're still video games
From:
I know of at least one entertainment center (like a Dave & Busters in the US) that has an arcade room which holds video slots and video poker games along with driving games etc. and basketball and skee ball games. The video poker games give out tickets like the skee ball games do, which can be redeemed for prizes.
It seems a little priggish to take gambling games out of mame. There are gambling games for home console video games, are those immoral?
People gamble on mahjong, horse racing and sports, should those kind of arcade games be taken out?

On the other hand, it seems logical to take out Pong, since it's not emulated.
Maybe separating it will encourage other simulations.

-aux

[Post a reply]

Name: dbrock@kc.rr.com Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (16:06)
Subject: But what about?..
From:
Simulating hardware shouldn't be part of nicola's decision process.
All the vector games are using new code to simulate a vector display on top of your raster screen. So the display emulation is being somewhat "faked" anyway.
If the project is about religious beliefs in emulation then the casino games should stay because they are at least being fully emulated.
Either way, I'm sure we all have our own opinions, and as snotty as it sounds.. I think our (the user community) opinions are worth more than the developers. I only say this because it sounds like nicola suffers from the affliction that affects so many engineering types. He seems to be to involved in what he's doing/wants to see what we are doing/want.

I think most users would say, "Keep it all". I hope the mamedev team will actually consider the input of users like those who follow news on sites like this on a daily basis. I happen to think [educated] emulation users are an important part of this whole activity we all enjoy so much.

[Post a reply]

Name: Crisis Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (15:29)
Subject: Gambling games
From:
I live in Australia Victoria where instead of One armed slot Machines We have Video Slot machines whith different types of games as well as ones based on the same set up as a standard Slot machine. I dont think gambling games are the same as normal Arcade games or even Card sim games.

I think tho if documention is the idea then the games should be included if they dont offer a payout in the originally and are genually a game for fun and not for real gambling.

I work in the car park of a casino which has thousands of gambling video game machines and see the same faces come in everyday some times two or three times in the one shift. Recently in anoter gambing venue ,but stil in Australia Victoria, a woman left her child in the car while she went of to play for a few hours the child died from heat exaushtion. So if people are using MAME in a way it wasnt designed and are using it for gambling maybe they should be removed. But theres no payout from the arcade versions of some gambling games and people arnt going to be loosin money or neglecting there real lives on a gambling game if they cant really gamble.

Im not sure how the MAME gambling games have been abused but obviously Nicola
Feel's they have been and has every Right to Make such a decision.

But also remmber I very rarely know what Im talkin about.


[Post a reply]

Name: anticupid Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (14:53)
Subject: why not one more final release...
From:
I really think the games that are going to be removed should be left in place until the next beta cycle begins. Doing this would accomplish several things: it would allow people to have a stable build to continue to play the games with, it would give people wishing to make a seperate project for these games times to get organized and most importantly it would give a stable base for a new group to build the gambling games upon.

As for Pong, it sounds like it would be best served by a dedicated program. The main idea behind Mame seems to be using shared code to speed further development, something I don't thing Pong contributes to or benefits from.

ac.

[Post a reply]

Name: malcolm Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (5:08)
Subject: Re: why not one more final release...
From:
>As for Pong, it sounds like it would be best served by a dedicated program. The main idea behind Mame seems to be using shared code to speed further development, something I don't thing Pong contributes to or benefits from.
The GenSync CPU core was designed to speed development of non CPU games and as such has the potential to become a shared code resource as important as any of the real CPU cores. But unfortunatly it looks like the whole ingenious idea will be killed at birth. Oh dear!


[Post a reply]

Name: Eric Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (14:46)
Subject: It's not a morality or a dislike issue!
From:
Nicola only cited the fact that they don't fit into the scope of what MAME is trying to do, not that they are immoral or anything like that as his reason for taking them out of MAME. It's simply because they're not "arcade games" that they're being removed.

[Post a reply]

Name: SAV2880 Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (14:39)
Subject: Slippery Stone
From:
I agree. If Nicola can do this, what's next? Gal's Panic removal? Removing games cause they are not perfectly in the realm of the project manager's likes or dislikes?

This removal, unlike that of 1999 games, is a slippery stone, with can lead anywhere and to anything, and that's what bothers me most.

Scott

[Post a reply]

Name: Nathan Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (14:37)
Subject: Gambling games
From:
I may not agree with all of the reasons for the removal of gambling games, but I do think they are different from arcade video games. Gambling games are games of chance, video games are games of skill. You have control over the outcome. With slot machines and similar games you have no real control over what happens. Even poker, which requires skill when playing against people, becomes just a game of chance against the computer. The subtleties of human competition are totally lost, and it's just a card dealing machine at that point.

Arcade video games, on the other hand, are games of skill that can be practiced, learned and mastered.

As for simulation, I'd like to see it stay, or become part of a new preservation project. I think it's too important to be tossed aside. Besides, with simulated sound being worked on for some of the Atari vector games, isn't it hypocritical to keep one and discard the other?

[Post a reply]

Name: Marc Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (13:57)
Subject: Just keep your old beta
From:
Until someone makes a Multiple Gambling Machines Emulator, and until the Discrete Circuits Arcade Machine Simulator is ready, just don't delete your old copy of Mame.

Marc (waiting for the Multiple Information Stand Emulator :-)

[Post a reply]

Name: SYRINX Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (13:21)
Subject: Slot Machines
From:
I have personally never seen these machines in or around an arcade from where i am from (Cincinnati) So, i cant blame them for taking them out. I dont really consider them video games and i dont see how a person could have any nostalgia for them. But to each there own i suppose

[Post a reply]

Name: Posted: Friday, February 25, 2000 - (20:23)
Subject: Re: Slot Machines
From:
>I have personally never seen these machines in or around an arcade from where i am from (Cincinnati) So, i cant blame them for taking them out. I dont really consider them video games and i dont see how a person could have any nostalgia for them. But to each there own i suppose

>

[Post a reply]

Name: phorce phed Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (13:14)
Subject: On Pong, etc.
From:
The author of the MAME Pong "simulator" (his word, not mine) not only agrees with but fully endorses the removal of his work from MAME. There's a message from him on one of the Retrogamers message boards.

As far as the video slot machines go: if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck! AFAIK, as long as the machines don't give out real money and don't display anything "pornographic" (whatever that means) they are legally fit (in most jurisdictions, I would assume) to sit right next to Galaga without a gambling license or any patron age restrictions.

So if these machines are "kiddie arcade legal" then why shouldn't they be "MAME legal"?

On the other hand, if these are actual GAMBLING games (that is, they give you money if you win) then I would say they belong in a "casino" emulator rather than an "arcade" emulator.

That said, I see no reason why the MAME team couldn't allow some ambitious individual/team to split off their own version of MAME specifically dedicated to casino machines (similar to PacMAME -- except that the games wouldn't get included in the regular MAME).

[Post a reply]

Name: Don Emuleeta Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (12:43)
Subject:
From:
Listen up punks. Our organinzation, sometimes called the Mafia, has its roots in the same country as your boy Nicola. We control these machines in most of the world so if he knows what is good for him he better take out of MAME or he might end up "SLEEPING WITH THE FISHES".

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Name: Massimo di ROMa Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (16:15)
Subject: Capice? (nt)
From:
I said (nt).

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Name: Eric Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (12:25)
Subject: Different enough.
From:
I think the games inquestion fall into 3 distinct categories. Redemtion games (that give out tokens/tickets for prizes, usually kids games), Gaming Machines (video slots, video poker -- adult gambling entertainment), and Video games (which mame uses "arcade machines" to represent).

IMHO, MAME is all about arcade 'video games' and the gambling stuff doesn't need to be there.

Not that I don't think these things should be preserved, I just think it warrants a seperate project, sort of like MESS. A new emulator that covers this new genre of machines.

Sure, some may have seen these machines in arcades, but that doesn't make them something that falls into MAME's scope by default.

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Name: personan Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (12:22)
Subject:
From:
I suspect whoever was grinding the organ let go of the handle. Now we get to hear the monkey play his tune.

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Name: ThumB Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2000 - (12:16)
Subject: ??????
From:
If it ain't broke....Don't fix it! Why they just don't leave it in there and not develop any other games that fit the definition they've made up is a mystery to my.

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